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Has
Feminism Gone Too Far?
Talk Show Guests:
Camille
Paglia & Christina Hoff Sommers
Think Tank With Ben
Wattenberg
Airdate: November 4,
1994
By special arrangement
with Think Tank and Think Tank On-line.
Christina Hoff
Sommers is the author of Who Stole Feminism? : How Women
Have Betrayed Women.
Camille Paglia is the
author of Sexual Personae, Sex, Art, and American Culture :
Essays, and Vamps and Tramps
MR. WATTENBERG: Hello, I'm Ben
Wattenberg. There are many feminists and scholars who
contend that America is still a patriarchal place where
women are victims and adversaries of men. We will hear that
point of view in a future program. But for the next
half-hour we will hear a different idea from two prominent
and controversial feminists: Camille Paglia and Christina
Sommers.
The topic before this house: Has
feminism gone too far? This week on Think Tank.
Joining us on this special edition
of Think Tank are two authors who have made themselves
unpopular with much of the modern feminist movement. Camille
Paglia is professor of humanities at the University of the
Arts in Philadelphia and best-selling author most recently
of "Vamps and Tramps." Her criticisms of modern feminism
caused one author to refer to her as the spokeswoman for the
anti-feminist backlash.
Our other guest, Christina Sommers,
is an associate professor of philosophy at Clark University.
In her recent book, "Who Stole Feminism," she accuses
activist women of betraying the women's movement. She wrote
the book, she says, because she is a feminist who does not
like what feminism has become.
Christina Sommers, what has
feminism become?
MS. SOMMERS: The orthodox feminists
are so carried away with victimology, with a rhetoric of
male-bashing that it's full of female chauvinists, if you
will. Also, women are quite eager to censor, to silence. And
what concerns me most as a philosopher is it's become very
anti-intellectual, and I think it poses a serious risk to
young women in the universities. Women's studies classes are
increasingly a kind of initiation into the most radical
wing, the most intolerant wing, of the feminist movement.
And I consider myself a whistle-blower. I'm from inside the
campus. I teach philosophy. I've seen what's been going on.
MR. WATTENBERG: Camille, what has
feminism become?
MS. PAGLIA: Well, I have been an
ardent feminist since the rebirth of the current feminist
movement. I'm on the record as being -- as rebelling against
my gender-role, as being an open lesbian and so on. In the
early 1960s I was researching Amelia Earhart, who for me
symbolized the great period of feminism of the '20s and '30s
just after women won the right to vote. When this phase of
feminism
kicked back in the late '60s, it
was very positive at first. Women drew the line against men
and demanded equal rights. I am an equal opportunity
feminist. But very soon it degenerated into a kind of
totalitarian "group think" that we are only now rectifying
20 years later.
MR. WATTENBERG: Is this the
distinction between equity feminism and gender feminism? Is
that what we're talking about?
MS. SOMMERS: That's right. Yes.
MR. WATTENBERG: Could you sort of
explain that so that we get our terms right?
MS. SOMMERS: An equity feminist --
and Camille and I both are equity feminists --is you want
for women what you want for everyone: fair treatment, no
discrimination. A gender feminist, on the other hand, is
someone like the current leaders in the feminist movement:
Patricia Ireland and Gloria Steinem and Susan Faludi and
Eleanor Smeal. They believe that women are trapped in what
they call a sex-gender system, a patriarchal hegemony; that
contemporary American women are in the thrall to men, to
male culture. And it's so silly. It has no basis in American
reality. No women have ever had more opportunities, more
freedom, and more equality than contemporary American women.
And at that moment the movement becomes more bitter and more
angry. Why are they so angry?
MS. PAGLIA: Mmm-hmm. (In
agreement.) This is correct. In other words, I think that
the current feminist movement has taken credit for a lot of
the enormous changes in women's lives that my generation of
the '60s wrought. There were women in the mid '60s when I
was in college who did not go onto become feminists. They
were baudy and feisty and robust. Barbra Streisand is a kind
of example of a kind of pre-feminist woman that changed the
modern
world and so on.
Now, I think that again what we
need to do now is to get rid of the totalitarians, get rid
of the Kremlin mentality --
MR. WATTENBERG: Now, hang on, when
you say --
MS. PAGLIA: Wait -- and here are
the aims of my program.
We've got to get back to a pro-art,
all right, pro-beauty,
pro-men kind of feminism. And --
MS. SOMMERS: I think she's right to
call it a kind of totalitarianism. Many young women on
campuses combine two very dangerous things: moral fervor and
misinformation. On the campuses they're fed a kind of
catechism of oppression. They're taught "one in four of you
have been victims of rape or attempted rape; you're earning
59 cents on the dollar; you're suffering a massive loss
of
self-esteem; that you're battered
especially on Super Bowl Sunday." All of these things are
myths, grotesque exaggerations.
MR. WATTENBERG: Well, why don't you
go through some of those myths with some specificity?
MS. SOMMERS: Well, for example, a
few years ago feminist activists held a news conference and
announced that on Super Bowl Sunday battery against women
increases 40 percent. And, in fact, NBC was moved to use a
public service announcement to, you know, encourage men
"remain
calm during the game." Well --
MR. WATTENBERG: How can you remain
calm during the Super Bowl! (Laughter.)
MS. SOMMERS: Well, they might
explode like mad linemen and attack their wives and so
forth. The New York Times began to refer to it as the "day
of dread." One reporter, Ken
Ringle at the Washington Post, did
something very unusual in this roiling sea of media
credulity. He checked the facts -- and within a few hours
discovered that it was a hoax. No such research, no --
there's no data about a 40-percent increase. And this is
just one of so many myths. You'll hear--
MR. WATTENBERG: Give me some
others.
MS. SOMMERS: According to the March
of Dimes, battery is the number -- the leading cause of
birth defects. Patricia Ireland repeats this. It was in Time
magazine. It was in newspapers across the country. I called
the March of Dimes and they said, "We've never seen this
research before." This is preposterous. There's no such
research. And yet this is being taught to young women in the
colleges. They're basically learning that they live in a
kind of violent -- almost a Bosnian rape camp.
Now, naturally, the more sensitive
young women --
MR. WATTENBERG: What about rape? Is
that exaggerated by
the modern feminists?
MS. SOMMERS: Completely. This idea
of one in four girls victims of rape or attempted rape?
That's preposterous!
And there's also a kind of
gentrification of rape. You're much more likely to be a
victim of rape or attempted rape if you're in a high crime
neighborhood. The chances of being raped at Princeton are
remote. Katie Roiphe talked about being at Princeton. She
said she was more afraid -- she
would walk across a dark golf
course and was more afraid of being attacked by wild geese
than by a rapist. And yet the young women at Princeton have
more programs and whistles are given out and blue lights.
There's more services to protect these young women from rape
than for women in, you know, downtown Newark.
MR. WATTENBERG: Where do you come
out on this?
MS. PAGLIA: Well, one of the things
that got me pilloried from coast to coast was when I wrote a
piece on date rape for Newsday in January of 1991. It got
picked up by the wire services, and the torrent of abuse
that poured in. I want women to fend for themselves. That
essay that I
wrote on rape begins with the line
"Rape is an outrage that cannot be tolerated in civilized
society." I absolutely abhor this broadening of the idea of
rape, which is an atrocity, to those things that go wrong on
a date --acquaintances, you know, little things,
miscommunications -- on pampered elite college campuses. MS.
SOMMERS: I interviewed a young women at the University of
Pennsylvania who came in in a short skirt and she was in the
Women's Center, and I think she thought I was one of the
sisterhood. And she said, "Oh, I just suffered a mini-rape."
And I said, "What happened?" And she said, "A boy walked by
me and said, `Nice legs'." You know? And that -- and this
young woman considers this a form of rape!
MS. PAGLIA: That's right.
MR. WATTENBERG: What role in the
development of this kind
of thought that the idea of sexual
harassment and whole
Anita Hill thing have? Was that
sort of a --
MS. PAGLIA: That's fairly recent,
actually. It was in the late '80s that started. I mean, that
was a late phase. I think probably the backlash against the
excesses of sexual harassment have -- you know, have really
finally weakened the hold of PC. I believe, for example, in
moderate sexual harassment guidelines. I lobbied for their
adoption at my university in 1986. But I put into my
proposal a strict penalty for false accusation. All right? I
don't like the situation where the word of any woman is
weighed above the testimony of any man. And I was the only
leading feminist that went out against Anita Hill. I think
that that whole case was pile of crap.
MR. WATTENBERG: Why?
MS. PAGLIA: Well, I think it was
absurd. First of all, again, totalitarian regime, okay, is
where 10 years after the fact you're nominated now for a top
position in your country and you are being asked to
reconstruct lunch conversations that you had with someone
who never uttered a peep. Okay? This is to Anita Hill: "All
right, when he started to talk again about this pornographic
films at lunch in the government cafeteria, what did you
do?" "I tried to change the subject."Excuse me! I mean, that
is ridiculous. I mean, so many of these cases --
MS. SOMMERS: He never touched her.
MS. PAGLIA: He never touched her.
Okay? That was such a trumped-up case by the feminist
establishment.
MR. WATTENBERG: Do you sign onto
that?
MS. SOMMERS: Well, I've changed. I
mean, initially I was just carried away with the media and
thought, "Oh, Saint Anita." And later I thought about it and
actually learned from some experts on sexual harassment that
her behavior
was completely untypical. She did
not act -- the career lechers --usually a woman is repulsed
and will not follow him from place to place, and usually
there are many women who will come forward who have had the
same experience. These things were not true in his case. It
now seems to me quite likely that he was innocent of these
charges.
MS. PAGLIA: Completely innocent.
And I must say, as a teacher of 23 years, if someone offends
you by speech, we must train women to defend themselves by
speech. You cannot be always running to tribunals. Okay?
Running to parent figures, authority figures, after the fact
because you want to preserve your perfect, decorous,
middle-class persona.
MR. WATTENBERG: This is Catherine
MacKinnon, who says speech is rape?
MS. PAGLIA: Yes, I'm on the
opposite wing. Catherine McKinnon is the anti-porn wing of
feminism. I am on the radically pro-porn wing. I'm more
radical than Christina. I
--
MR. WATTENBERG: Are you
pro-pornography?
MS. SOMMERS: For adults. I'm trying
to be very careful about it for -- you know, I feel in our
society -- for children. But I'm horrified at the puritanism
and the sex phobia of feminism. How did that happen? I mean,
feminism -- it used to be fun to be a feminist, and it used
to have a lot of -- it attracted all sorts of lively women.
Now you ask a group of young women on the college campus,
"How many of you are feminists?" Very few will raise their
hands because young women don't want to be associated with
it anymore because they know it means male-bashing, it means
being a victim, and it means being bitter and angry. And
young women are not naturally bitter and angry.
MS. PAGLIA: We had a case at Penn
State where an English instructor who was assigned to teach
in an arts building where there had been a print of Goya's
"Naked Maja," a great classic artwork, on the wall for 40
years. All right? She demanded it be taken down because she
felt sexually
harassed by it, because the
students in the classroom were looking at it instead of her.
Okay? Now, this is ridiculous. This is part of the
puritanism of our culture. I want a kind of feminism that is
pro-beauty, pro-sensuality. Okay? That is not embarrassed
and upset by a spectacle of the beauty
of the human body!
MR. WATTENBERG: What about this
argument that came up recently that girls in elementary and
high school are neglected by their teachers? Is that -- have
either of you --
MS. PAGLIA: A bunch of crap.
MS. SOMMERS: It's a hoax.
MS. PAGLIA: A bunch of crap.
MS. SOMMERS: I mean, it's all --
it's really an incredible case of just junk science. The
American Association of University Women hastily threw
together a survey of 3,000 children and asked them about
their sense of well-being and their self-esteem, and they
never published it. It'a not -- it hasn't been replicated by
scholars. Adolescents don't see significant differences --
the majority don't see
significant differences -- between
levels of self-esteem between young men and young women. Yet
the AAUW said it was true. It's an advocacy group. Their
membership was
drying up. They were losing, you
know, several thousand members a year. They needed an issue.
They brought in a new group and they got on the gender-bias
bandwagon and basically struck gold. They now -- you can
call an 800 number. They have short-changing girls mugs and
t-shirts.
(Laughter.) And they were so
positively reviewed in the media that they can use --
MS. PAGLIA: Oh, the media was
utterly credulous. I couldn't believe it when MacNeil/Lehrer
totally -- they fell for it like suckers that night.
MS. SOMMERS: Well, they would ask
young men, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" And
boys would say things like rock star or sports star. And
girls would say lawyer and doctor. So they declared a glamor
gap and said that there's a glamor gap, that girls don't
dream their dreams.
Well, most children don't have the
talent to be rock stars. The sensible ones know this. So the
way I would interpret those findings is that girls mature
earlier and boys suffer a reality gap.
MS. PAGLIA: Right, right.
MS. SOMMERS: But this was the kind
of question that was asked. Yet not one journalist that I'm
aware of, except the Sacramento Bee, because they wrote to
me and said, "We question this" -- they didn't do what Ken
Ringle did at the Washington Post. They didn't send away for
the data. They relied on the glossy brochures.
MR. WATTENBERG: Let me --
MS. PAGLIA: And the question of
attention in the classroom, too. As experienced teachers,
okay, this idea that you measure, okay, how much attention
the teacher is paying to the boys and girls to determine how
much that the student is valued, and it was discovered that
the teacher was
making more remarks to the boys.
You're keeping them in line! Okay? The boys you have to say,
"Shut up, be quiet! Do this thing. Are you doing your
homework?" Like this. The girls, all right, they do their
homework. They're very mature. And girls at that age are
rather sensitive, and I as a teacher am very aware -- as a
teacher of freshmen, all right -- that the girls are sitting
there pleading with you with their eyes, "Don't embarrass me
in front of the entire class." Okay? I'm very aware that I
seem to be talking often to the boys. Tut that is just
because they're so -- their egos are completely -- I mean,
they're so unconflicted. Okay? They love attention. They're
like yapping puppies. You know what I mean? They don't care
about making fools of themselves once they start.
MR. WATTENBERG: The boys?
MS. PAGLIA: The boys make fools of
themselves, blah, blah, blah, blah! Okay? The most
intelligent students hang back. All right? I was very silent
in class, myself. Okay? And so I -- and I like to just take
notes. All right?
MR. WATTENBERG: That sounds like
you're anti-male now. You're saying, "Now I'm offended."
MS. PAGLIA: No, no!
MS. SOMMERS: But they can be
immature.
MS. PAGLIA: The boys are immature.
MS. SOMMERS: The AAUW would ask
children: "I'm good at a lot of things." And you could say,
all the time, some of the time, usually, but you know -- and
a lot of little boys, the
11 to -- would say, "All the time,
I'm good at everything all the time." And girls, being a
little more reflective, will give a more nuanced answer. The
AAUW counted everything except "always true" meaning that
they were suffering from a dangerous lack of self-esteem.
They declared an
American tragedy. American girls
don't believe in themselves.
MS. PAGLIA: Right, and the girls'
are doing better in school.
MS. SOMMERS: Girls are getting
better grades.
MS. PAGLIA: Right.
MS. SOMMERS: More go to college.
MS. PAGLIA: Right.
MS. SOMMERS: More boys drop out.
More boys are getting into drugs and alcohol.
MR. WATTENBERG: And most of the
teachers are women in any event --
MS. SOMMERS: Yes. And to add to
that, it's supposed to be unconscious --
(Cross talk.)
MR. WATTENBERG: -- a point you
made, I guess, in that.
MS. SOMMERS: Yeah.
MR. WATTENBERG: The -- what about
the argument -- you hear less about it now, and perhaps the
data has changed, but that women only make 59 cents for
every dollar that --
MS. PAGLIA: First of all, what was
omitted from that is what kind of jobs are women gravitating
toward? I mean, Warren Farrell, in his book, "The Myth of
Male Power," has a lot of statistics that show men are
taking the dangerous, dirty jobs like roofing, okay, the
kind of gritty things that pay more -- commissioned sales
that are very unstable. Okay?
It appears that a lot of women --
where the real biases occur, okay, those barriers must be
removed. But this is an inadequate kind of a figure. It
doesn't allow for the fact that most women, in fact, in my
experience, too, like nice clean, safe offices, nice
predictable hours and so on, and
they don't want to, like, knock
themselves out in that kind of way. I mean, every time I
pass -- after reading Warren Farrell's book, every time I
pass men doing that roofing tar, okay, breathing those toxic
fumes and so on, okay, I have a renewed respect for the kind
of sacrifices that men have made.
MR. WATTENBERG: That 59-cent number
--
MS. SOMMERS: It hasn't been for --
MR. WATTENBERG: -- is now 71, but
even that was --
MR. SOMMERS: It's now 71 cents, and
that is not correct because you have to control for age,
length of time in the work place. And if you look at younger
women now, the age -- the wage gap is closed. It's now --
when they have children, it's 90 cents. But if they don't
have children, it's now closer to what --
MS. PAGLIA: It would be outrageous
if people were doing exactly the same thing and being paid a
different wage. Okay? But that is not at all the basis for
this figure.
MR. WATTENBERG: Legalized abortion
has come to be viewed as the central issue of the feminist
movement. Is that an appropriate spot for it to be? That --
MS. SOMMERS: It's an important
issue. I believe, in choice, but I think there's an
obsession with feminists with that issue, which is -- and
it's also very -- it leaves a lot of women out of the
movement. There should be a place in women's studies, there
should be a place in women's scholarship for traditionally
religious women. There are Christian -- conservative
Christian women who are scholars, Orthodox Jewish women who
are scholars, Islamic women who are scholars. Why don't --
why isn't there any place for them in women's studies?
Because there's a litmus test --
MS. PAGLIA: Yes.
MS. SOMMERS: -- and you have to be
pro-choice or you need not apply.
MS. PAGLIA: I'm radically
pro-choice, unrestricted right to abortion. However, I have
respect for the pro-life side, and I am disgusted by the
kind of rhetoric that I get. I support the abortion rights
groups with money and so on, but I cannot stand the kind of
stuff that comes in my mailbox, right, which stereotypes all
pro-life people as being fanatics, misogynists, and so on,
radical and far, you know,
right and so on. I mean, it is
MS. SOMMERS: It is so condescending
and so elitist.
MS. PAGLIA: It's condescending.
It's insulting. It's elitist. It's anti-intellectual. It's a
deformed --
MS. SOMMERS: It's very
anti-intellectual. The arguments on abortion philosophically
-- and I teach applied ethics -- if you really understand
the issues, you have to have some questions, especially
about second trimester abortions where you are quite likely
dealing with an individual.
MR. WATTENBERG: What is your view
today? How would the average American woman, if we could
ever distill such a body, how does she view this new
feminism?
MS. SOMMERS: Well, the average
American women, first of all, is rather fond of men. Okay?
She has a husband or a father or a brother or -- you know?
So the male-bashing is out of control right now. I mean --
and if you look at a lot of the statistics that I
deconstruct in my book. You know,
that men are responsible for birth
defects, that men -- Naomi Wolff has a factoid she has since
corrected, but she says 150,000 girls die every year
starving themselves to death from anorexia. This was in
Gloria Steinem's book. It got into Ann Lander's column. It's
in women's studies textbooks. The correct figure, according
to the Center for
Disease Control, is closer to 100
deaths a year, not 150,000.
MS. PAGLIA: Three-thousand times
exaggerated or something.
MS. SOMMERS: It's, you know -- so
Naomi Wolff put is this way. She said young -- it's a
holocaust against women's bodies. We're being starved not by
nature, but by men. And
--
MS. PAGLIA: They want to blame the
media for anorexia, when in point of fact anorexia plays
white middle-class households. It is a response to something
incestuous going on within these nuclear families.
MS. SOMMERS: Mainly
upper-middle-class --
MS. PAGLIA: Yes, right.
MS. SOMMERS: -- overachieving white
girls.
MS. PAGLIA: Yeah.
MS. SOMMERS: And by the way, if
150,000 of these girls where dying, you would need -- it
would be -- you would need to have ambulances on hand at
places where they gather like Wellesley College graduation
and like you do at major sporting events. (Laughter.) But
why didn't anyone -- it's funny, but no one caught the
error.
MS. PAGLIA: No one caught it. The
media was totallyservile! Every word that came out of Gloria
Steinem's mouth or Patricia Ireland's mouth is treated as
gospel truth. For 20 years the major media, when they want
"what is the women's view?" they turn to NOW. Okay? NOW does
not speak for American women. It does not speak even for all
feminists.
MR. WATTENBERG: NOW is the National
Organization --
MS. PAGLIA: National Organization
for Women, which --
MR. WATTENBERG: National
Organization for Women.
MS. PAGLIA: -- for Women, which
Betty Friedan founded, but which soon expelled even her.
Okay? They've been taken over by a certain kind of ideology.
All right? I'm in constant war with them as a dissident
feminist and so on, and -- you know, and it's taken me a
long time, you know, to fight my way into the public eye.
MR. WATTENBERG: All right, let me
ask this question: What are the policy implications of this
idea of feminine dictumhood?
MS. SOMMERS: It's a disaster. These
women are -- I will give them one thing. They're brilliant
work-shoppers, networkers, organizers, moving in, taking
over infrastructure. They're busybodies. There has never
been a more effective, you know, army of busybodies. And
they know how to work the system. So they will hastily throw
together a study designed to show women are medically
neglected or women have a massive loss of self-esteem -- one
in four. And then they move to key senators. Senator Biden
seems to be especially vulnerable.
MS. PAGLIA: Oh! What a weak link.
What a weak link.
MS. SOMMERS: Patricia Schroeder,
Senator Kennedy. But it's Republicans, too. They're quite
carried away. Congressman Ramstad from Minneapolis.
MR. WATTENBERG: Yeah, they're
afraid of the TV commercials running against them, which is
--
MS. SOMMERS: That's right.
MS. PAGLIA: Yeah, that's right.
MS. SOMMERS: And then we're getting
-- we now have a gender-bias bill that went through Congress
that's going to provide millions of dollars for gender-bias
workshops.
What the politicians don't realize
is that feminism is a multi-million dollar industry. The
gender-bias industry is thriving. They're the work-shoppers
and the networkers out there.
MS. PAGLIA: The bureaucrats are
really profitting --
MS. SOMMERS: Consultants and
bureaucrats.
MS. PAGLIA: It's a tremendous waste
of money.
MS. SOMMERS: And it's not based on
truth.
MS. PAGLIA: It should go into
education. That money should go directly into education to
improve the system.
MS. SOMMERS: I spoke to a teacher
yesterday who taught in Brooklyn, and there were no books to
teach English.
MS. PAGLIA: Oh, pathetic!~
MS. SOMMERS: And yet there are
going to be -- there's going to be $5 million now, plus a
lot more from the education bill, for workshops on
gender-bias in the classroom, which is a non-problem
compared to far more serious problems. So I consider many
feminists to be opportunists. They move in on real problems.
There is a problem of violence in our schools. They'll turn
it into a problem of sexual harassment --
MS. PAGLIA: Yes.
MS. SOMMERS: -- which is nothing
compared to the problem of violence and instability. They'll
move into under-performance of our kids.
MS. PAGLIA: All this money should
be going into keeping public libraries open so that the poor
can go in and take out a book the way my immigrants, you
know, parents were able to and the way I was able to. It's
outrageous that we have the closing-down of public
libraries, and the conditions of inner-city schools is
disgraceful. And all this money wasted going to bureaucrats?
MR. WATTENBERG: Camille, let me ask
you this: Does the case you make undermine traditional
family values? Would a conservative listening to what you
are talking about in terms of sensuality and sexuality and
pornography and so on, would they say you are undermining
and corroding family values in America?
MS. PAGLIA: Probably they would,
but my argument in all my books is rather large. I say that
Western culture was formed as two great traditions -- the
Judeo-Christian and the Greco-Roman -- and they have
contributed to each other and they're in conflict with each
other. And I -- what I -- my libertarian theory is of a
public sphere/private sphere. Government must remain out of
the private sphere for abortion and drug use and sodomy and
so on. The public sphere is shared by both traditions. I
have respect for the Judeo-Christian side. I'm calling in
"The Activism in Feminism" for a renewed respect for
religion, even though I'm an atheist. So I think that there
is much in my thinking that I think would reassure people of
traditional family values.
MR. WATTENBERG: Let me ask you this
question to close of both of you: What should the 1990s
equity feminist believe in and believe remains to be done
for women?
MS. SOMMERS: The first thing, I
think we have to save young women from the feminists. That's
at the top of my agenda. And I say that as a very committed
feminist philosopher. I went into philosophy. It was a field
traditionally dominated by males. I got my job as a
professor to encourage more young women to enter this field,
to be analytic thinkers, to be logicians and metaphyscians.
And, instead, in feminist philosophy classes you'll often
have young women sitting around honoring emotions and
denigrating the great thinkers instead of, you know,
studying them, mastering them and benefitting from them.
MR. WATTENBERG: So you --
MS. SOMMERS: That's one thing. The
other thing, more traditional feminist issue, is probably
the double-shift. As women, we're doing a lot of things men
traditionally did; they're not doing what we traditionally
did. And so women do bear more responsibility at home. But
if we're going to solve that problem, I think we have to
approach men as friends --
MS. PAGLIA: We have to -- yes --
MS. SOMMERS: -- in a spirit of
respect instead of calling them proto-rapists and harassers
and --
MS. PAGLIA: The time for hostility
to men is past. There was that moment. I was part of it. I
have punched men, kicked men, hit them over the head with
umbrellas. Okay? I am openly confrontational with men. As an
open lesbian, I have been -- you know, I express my anger to
men directly. I don't get in a group and whine about men.
So, oddly, I give men a break and admit the greatness of
male, you know, achievements and so on. What we have to do
now is get over that anger toward men, all right, and we
have to bring the sexes back together. Reconciliation
between the sexes is the first order of business.
MR. WATTENBERG: Okay. Thank you,
Christina Sommers and Camille Paglia for your critique of
modern feminism. We will be hearing an opposing view on a
future program.
And thank you. We enjoy hearing
from our audience. Please send comments and questions to:
New River Media, 1150 17th Street, NW, Washington, DC,
20036. Or we can be reached via e-mail at thinktv@aol.com.
For Think Tank, I'm Ben Wattenberg.
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